atash
Junior Member
Learning from my mistakes since 1964
Posts: 96
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Post by atash on Sept 12, 2009 13:58:27 GMT -8
This question does not apply much to tomatoes, because they inbreed by default.
Hybrid vigor is supposed to be the result of having so many gene pairs that are different alleles--"heterozygosity"--which is supposed to improve the chances of producing the ideal enzymes for any given trait. Something like that. I'm not a breeder so be patient with me.
I have some melons that are a "hybrid swarm", much like the famous Russell Lupines (the breeder just planted several species together, let them randomly hybridize, and culled any that he didn't like). Random hybrids of various early-ripening melons.
Would hybrid swarms, because of their genetic diversity, tend to have more vigor than highly-inbred heirloom crops that probably are highly "homozygous"?
The reason I am wondering is because on the one hand, F1 hybrids are tedious to create because of the hand-pollination required--for which reason much of the seed comes from China. Plus, their offspring lose the hybrid vigor, and you have to maintain 3 different seed lines (both parent lines, plus the hybrids).
On the other hand, a lot of heirloom and "OP" crops are noticeably weak growers compared to F1 hybrids.
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Post by jonnyyuma on Sept 13, 2009 15:30:41 GMT -8
Hello Atash, I work almost completly with melon at my place of employment so I can speak a lot about melons and a little about breeding. Heterosis is very interesting to me and I spend many hours thinking about it.
I must say in melon that vigor (plant) begets vigor. If you mean vigor, earliness, again earliness begets earliness. If you don't have it in your "swarm" you won't get it out. Earliness in melon and plant health in melon are both related to ethylene release. Earliness is also related to days to first female flower. In general monoecious melons are earlier than andromonoecious melons but have less plant vigor. Also in general andromonoecious melons have better commercial quality than monoecious (sugar and firmness). Monoecious melons are usually oblong to "pear" shaped and andro are round. Mono is larger than andro (in general). Melon and watermelon, to me, are the most interesting things to breed. The combining ability and diversity is unbelievable and what you can do with that, because all C. melo can cross and all C. lanatus can cross. It is fun to say the least. The asians countries have been working on melon and watermelon for so long that what they have to offer is great to cross with "american" types and see what you get. Chinese honeydews are unbelievable, texture like a long dutch cucumber and 18-20 degrees soluable solids! It hurts your toungue there is so much sugar......anyway I ramble.
Melons and watermelons (actually most cucurbits) are interesting because they cross readily but don't really suffer from inbreeding depression. Heterosis is argued in melon but I am confident that it is a very important in any breeding program.
In actuality it isn't that hard to maintain parent lines and produce hybrid seed in melon. We produce most of our melon seed in Peru and Chile because of phytosanitary issues with China (among other issues). I try to get us back to China all the time but I get shot down every year.
Jonny
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atash
Junior Member
Learning from my mistakes since 1964
Posts: 96
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Post by atash on Sept 20, 2009 13:34:29 GMT -8
Thank you for your comments. Just to be clear I am curious not just about melons but crops in general. The reason I brought up melons, was that the fact that I actually got some to ripen at 47.5 degrees latitude made me curious. >> If you don't have it in your "swarm" you won't get it out. I never thought that heterozygosity was enough to magically make new traits appear. It seems as though a lot of F1 hybrid producers routinely claim that their products are resistant to an alphabet soup of diseases, when in fact they don't seem to be. But they really do seem to grow faster and are more productive, but often, seemingly, at a tradeoff with flavor. All of my early cucurbits seem to have just a few traits that result in earliness: they are precocious and generous bloomers, and they have small fruit. The melons are just smaller than tennis balls. They are not particularly vigorous or fast-growing. Please ramble. I am interested. I have access to some Asian melons. Some of them I know to be quite early.
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Post by jonnyyuma on Sept 24, 2009 14:47:19 GMT -8
Hello again I have some "mixed race" melons that our breeder used to make that have reached 20% sugar. These types are not particularly fast but they are tastey. The korean "Silver Line" types are very fast maturity. The "Sprite" melon they like in N. Carolina is fast too. I don't like that one though. For what ever reason many of the Korean types are very fast. Most asian types are not super vigerous vines. The Hami types are the exception though. Very, very vigerous but highly susceptible to our strain(s) of P. Mildew.
The funny thing about "resistance" is that it can usually be broken under enough disease pressure. In fact at work we have been restricted on what we can call resistant. Basically we are stuck using intermediate resistant in almost all cases. Having resistance in a plant is one of the fastest ways to develop a new pathotype too. So it may not have broken the resistance, but the pathotype that was less prevalent is now at the top and the old pathotype is less because of the "resistance". Great example is Bremia resistance in lettuce, I think they are up to 25 races in Europe.
Flavor is a very interesting topic and kind of ties into vigor and earliness. In the case of melon these traits are all tied into ethylene release. All the things we select for in a western shipper type of cantaloupe (mostly what is in stores now) make things less "flavorfull", later maturity, more vigerous and firmer flesh (better storage/shipping ability) and are all tied to ethylene production/release.
Anyway, good luck with your projects. Jonny
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Post by fusionpower on Oct 7, 2009 20:25:51 GMT -8
Johnnyyuma,
Can you direct me to a source for some of the super sweet melons? I am interested in crossing an heirloom melon I have with one that is significantly sweeter to hopefully combine the luscious flavor of the heirloom melon with more sugar.
Thanks,
DarJones
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johno
New Member
Posts: 33
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Post by johno on Oct 11, 2009 14:41:07 GMT -8
Ditto what DarJones said...
And, I'm curious where the saying "hybrid swarms" came from? Is this the same thing as a grex, a term Alan Kapuler took from orchid growers, iirc?
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atash
Junior Member
Learning from my mistakes since 1964
Posts: 96
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Post by atash on Oct 12, 2009 23:21:32 GMT -8
>>Is this the same thing as a grex There is a reference to the seed line I have as a "grex", but I avoided that word because I wasn't sure it was right. My impression was that a grex is an instance of one species crossed with another, such as Rhododendron xLoderi = R griffithianum x R. fortunei (not sure of the order...) There are a bunch of these (Venus, King George, etc), and I think they were all done by repeating the cross between the parent species. My melons have been crossed and recrossed randomly, like the famous Russel Lupines. The melons are variable and somewhat random. There are several breeders posting here (including the host), so maybe one of them can confirm or deny. A "hybrid swarm" is something like "Metrosideros polymorpha" (the extremely varied populations of Metrosideros on the Hawaiian islands, probably caused by multiple species having arrived on the islands and interbred beyond recognition, but the whole population retaining the genetic variety of the multiple species...). www.agroforestry.net/tti/Metrosideros-ohia.pdf
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johno
New Member
Posts: 33
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Post by johno on Oct 16, 2009 18:35:11 GMT -8
Thanks atash. When the population is a mass cross of the same species (melons, for example), I'm not really sure what the correct word or phrase is. I'd like to find out if thee is one, or if it's yet to be made-up.
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Post by jonnyyuma on Oct 17, 2009 15:35:16 GMT -8
Hello, I have some seed of a few types. 2 are white flesh and a couple that are orange flesh.
You get the high amount of sugar because they don't slip from the vine like a muskmelon would. There are climacteric (melons that slip) and nonclimacteric (melons that don't slip). If you have a climacteric melon it is hard to get sugar up really high because the melon ends it's cycle when it is ready to slip and has formed the absicion layer where the stem attaches to the fruit. For nonclimacteric melons they are on the vine linger and can generate more sugar.
I have some seed if you want it. They are all F1 hybrids. I think I have some F2 of an orange flesh lying around somwhere.
Jonny
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Post by fusionpower on Oct 18, 2009 18:26:36 GMT -8
Johnnyyuma, My address is on my website at www.selectedplants.com Please either send me an email or just mail some seed to the address on the website. I would appreciate at least the seed of the orange flesh melon to try. Any others such as the white flesh would be appreciated also. Please note that I am interested in breeding prospects only. Thanks, DarJones
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Post by jonnyyuma on Oct 19, 2009 16:52:03 GMT -8
Hello, I had wanted to get some plants from you but you don't ship to AZ. I will get some seed in the mail for you this weekend. I will email you desriptions of each variety.
Thanks Jonny
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canadamike
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GARDENER FOR THE MOUTH
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Post by canadamike on Oct 20, 2009 14:17:20 GMT -8
As I am coming back from my european tour with Tom, this thread is like a gift to me. I can't write much, this computer is not mine and it takes me forever to write.
I soooooooo appreciate the presence of Johnny here and his love of melons. I am doing melon trials now, and the timing of our trip was bad for it, but I am probably the guy testing the most melons for the north. I want to say my own trials tend to concur with him for the most of what he said, all of it in fact but I much appreciated his way of saying '' generally'' a little thing that leaves breathing space to the writer but, most importantly, expresses the fact that genetics can be full of surprises and uncertainty.
From a point of view that is as much scientific as it could be poetic, these uncertainties are where new things are found. He is right in tune with my own observations. I have long said that true cantaloupes ( non climacteric) are the sweetest and most flavorful. I am envious of his knowlege of asian melons, although I got hundreds from GRIN, I was in Europe when time to test the few survivors of this horrible DRAUGHT FOLLOWED BY FLOOD summer. Many of the most resistant were asians. But when I came back, frost had taken care of everything.
Funny how talking together can help us....I cannot get over this summer and then this month of conference trip, badly timed for true observation of results, well....get over the fact that what Johnny said is confirming what I felt.
I hope we will talk together a lot, I will learn a lot from you, and you will probably learn from my trials too.
One thing: the LUNÉVILLE melon, a 250 years old cross of NOIR DES CARMES AND PRESCOTT HATIF, is the ONLY melon I have seen perform in total adversity, including sudden death syndrome in the colder days. The toughness comes from PRESCOTT HATIF ( hatif means early), the only one to survive last year's cold and downy mildew and cucumbers beetles ( both species, and the same happened in France). But Prescott gave me one melon, amazingly tasty, and LUNÉVILLE 5 big ones and a few that would have loved one more week.
It was more healthy and vibrant here in September, when ALL the others had died ( but PRESCOTT HATIF ) THAN THE OTHERS WHEN IN THE EARLY DAYS OF AUGUST, PRIME MELON TIME HERE. The same thing happened in Burgundy, France, and we were verifying reports from 80 years old french gardeners telling us it was an almost indestructible beast of a melon who could take almost everything.
Gosh....I found a melon person here. am I so happy.....
Michel
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Post by jonnyyuma on Oct 21, 2009 9:20:55 GMT -8
Hello Michel, I am glad I could make you happy. I have been involved with melons for many years, either growing them or developing new varieties with the breeders. I have been at this place for 8 years now and have been the resident melon "expert" for around 6 years. I havent' been exposed to European or Asian types much as Americans mostly only like western shipper types and honeydew types. We are trying at work to get the US to be more "sophisticated" when it comes to melons, but it is very difficult thing to do.
We purchased a couple of European companies a year and half ago I guess. I have been getting aquainted with Charantais, Italians, Galia, Ananas and Branco types over the last year. Very interesting. I finally got a good Charantais.....or figured out how to harvest them is more accurate.....probably the best melon I have ever had.
I use "general" a lot because of so many times I have been suprised and had my predictions proven wrong when I go through my trials. I look at the pedigree and the hybrid doesn't do anything that it is supposed to do.
Good to meet you. Jonny
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canadamike
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GARDENER FOR THE MOUTH
Posts: 186
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Post by canadamike on Oct 21, 2009 20:53:14 GMT -8
I have had better melons than charentais: Petit Gris de Rennes, Prescott, his son Luneville, Streit freiland grungenetz (green flesh) are on that list. I'll grow many europeans next season.
If you want seeds, just tell me. I have seeds of over 600 melons.
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Post by Tom Wagner on Oct 22, 2009 11:58:23 GMT -8
Well, I can't say a lot about melons..so go ahead anybody who wants to talk about them. Even though my TaterMater forum is kinda supposed to be about taters and maters...no problem!
Tom
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