Tomato Tye-Dye Hybrid

[Tom Wagner]

I am bringing this topic to the TaterMater forum.


In a previous thread I had just gotten around to read at Tomatoville.com.....and Yes! I found the discussion important enough to start a new topic under CrossTalk to (talk) about the breeding aspect of the new tomato called Tye-Dye Hybrid.

I would stop right now and read those posts before continuing here.
I included the link.....

Burpee does it again - UGH!
tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=12953

Here is the official write-up at Burpee's website...

Quote:

Tomato Tye-Dye Hybrid

. NEW Breakthrough bicolor gold and red with heirloom flavor.

Burpee Exclusive

One flavor-full, color-full, beautiful tomato. This breakthrough bicolor gold and red hybrid delivers all the heirloom flavor of Big Rainbow, Pineapple and Georgia Streak—with bigger yields, consistent form and better disease-resistance. The large, smooth 7-ounce fruits, miraculously marbled with red streaks, are lusciously sweet, mild, and non-acidic. Indeterminate. 78 Days.

To view a picture of the tomato look at this link.....

www.burpee.com/product/plants/tomato+plants/tomato+tye-dye+hybrid+-+packet+(15+seeds)/ViewLarger.do


Interesting that Burpee claims no relationship to Brad's Tie Dye even though the name is similar and also the flavor is like Big Rainbow, Pineapple and Georgia Streak...
Quote:
This breakthrough bicolor gold and red hybrid delivers all the heirloom flavor of Big Rainbow, Pineapple and Georgia Streak—
Now permit me to show links to each of these three tomatoes....
Pineapple

4.bp.blogspot.com/_jQWiCDyZBsI/Scr5YMmTYLI/AAAAAAAAAFk/k7AanYfQEfg/s1600-h/Tomato+Pineapple.png

Big Rainbow
www.burpee.com/images/en_US//local/products/detail/b63073.jpg

Georgia Streak tomato
www.reimerseeds.com/images/pr...mato_Seeds.jpg


My thought is that Burpee has a different clone than what Brad has....
Berkeley Tie Dye tomato

www.wildboarfarms.com/images/100_4693.jpg



After reviewing these photos, what are the parental backgrounds of Burpee's hybrid? Each variety looks like a simialr bi-color tomato. No information is given obviously on the pedigree. Brad's variety has stripes like the ancestor Green Zebra with a bit of green flesh. Did Burpee (Petoseeds) (Seminis)(Monsanto) cross Brad's Tie Dye with one of these varieties? I would think that Burpee's line would have faint stripes if Brad's BTD was used a parent.Can we assume that George Ball had anything to do with this hybrid? Note the quote below for some insight or not....

W. Atlee Burpee & Company was acquired, for an undisclosed amount in 1991. In 1993, George became the president of the Burpee Holding Company (the parent company of W. Atlee Burpee & Company). This was spun off of Ball Holding Company, in 2000.

Mr. Ball remained a director of Geo J. Ball, Inc. until its merger with Seminis in October 1995. He also served a two year term as Chairman of the Board of Petoseed (now also part of Seminis). He has been a director of Seminis, Inc. since October 1995 and was reelected to this position for another term at the annual meeting in 2001. (Seminis was purchased by Monsanto in January of 2005)

Nauurally, I would like to grow a few plants of the hybrid Tie Dye and check out the F-2 population, maybe even cross it with my improved bi-colors such as my Skykomish which has good late blight resistance (Ph-2 and Ph-3 genes).

A few years ago I sampled some of Brad's natural crosses of the Berkeley Tie Dye and from the segregations I have one I call Join or Die. I should show a picture of that one on my blog someday. Names can change or they can stay identical to existing clones of tomatoes. Who knows why Burpee chose the name that Brad made famous. Burpee likely did make it a hybrid and in a year or so we will know if that is true.

When I gave my talks this past fall in Europe, I told everyone that I can not control the names of my varieties, nor control folks growing them or selling the seed. I do not have the money for patents, let alone the money to police it.
In basic terms I more or less said, "My seeds are your seeds"........

Thirty years ago I sent Burpee some of my tomato seeds for trial. They wrote back at the end of the season that they did not want to get into specialty tomato varieties and that they had no further interest in my lines. No other communication has progressed since.

From what Brad has told me over the years....many of his creations got their start from natural crosses of my Green Zebra. I have no control on what Brad or anyone else does with my lines. And I doubt if Brad Gates should persue any inquiry since my own efforts to ask for credit of breeding is not always honored. I am happy when credit is given, don't get me wrong.

I have hundreds and hundreds of tomato varieties that I have developed that I have not released yet and I could easily have folks sample that many F-1 hybrid tomato lines. I had not done so because there wasn't any reason or money in it.

The Skykomish variety of mine is a super bi-color like the Hybrid Tie Dye and I have it as a parent in nearly 80 crosses. A few folks in Europe are among the lucky ones to get to try them.

Funny, I got my loudest applause in Europe when I would bad-mouth Monsanto! But if the world really wants diversity.... companies like Monsanto will have to come to the little people who grow true diversity in their own backyard. I only fear that the execrable seed companies are practicing parricidal genocide of the work that private breeders do in creating new plant varieties.

Tom Wagner

[pugs]

Tom,

I'm placing a small order with Burpees, despite their over-priced seeds. I'll order a pack of these and split it with you. Is there anything else you want, from Burpee or else where? I'm happy to try anything you think is worth trying and I'll split the seed packs with you.

Now, where do I get some of the Skykomish seeds?

Pugs

[Tom Wagner]

Skykomish Seed? I need to get a few co-operators to trial it and report back on the Late Blight res. and flavor. I have not organized my thinking on the tomato seed dispersal, however I did start the $5 per pkt. on the True Potato Seed (TPS).

Tom Wagner

[PatrickW]

I am definitely interested. I only have space for about 10 plants, and only then if I don't grow too many other tomatoes.

I still need to get you the numbers of the tomato seeds I got from you this fall, so I can get pedigree information them. I want to get this information to others as well. I suspect there will be at least one or two of those I want to try too. I'll try to do this in the next few days.

For the most part, if a tomato doesn't have some chance of surviving late blight, unless it's otherwise really interesting, it's probably not worth trying to grow here. I don't have much greenhouse space, and even in a greenhouse blight is still a big problem. Outdoors, the chance of even being able to harvest fruit or seed, is probably less than 50%. Since I have limited garden space, I need to think about growing other things too.

Some years are better than others for late blight however, and I'm interested in trying some of your blue crosses too.

Do you want me to let others know about your Skykomish seed, and see if I can find more people interested in growing it? If you like, I can act as a distributor, collect money and send out seeds. If you have particular wishes, for example only people you met when you were here or know, only serious participants or only specific regions, I can try to accommodate this. If the priority is to raise money by selling the seeds, I can try to do this too.

Jan 5, 2010 23:03:10 GMT -8 Tom Wagner said:

Skykomish Seed? I need to get a few co-operators to trial it and report back on the Late Blight res. and flavor. I have not organized my thinking on the tomato seed dispersal, however I did start the $5 per pkt. on the True Potato Seed (TPS).

Tom Wagner

[Tom Wagner]

Thanks, Patrick.

I am definitely interested. I only have space for about 10 plants, and only then if I don't grow too many other tomatoes.

I still need to get you the numbers of the tomato seeds I got from you this fall, so I can get pedigree information them. I want to get this information to others as well. I suspect there will be at least one or two of those I want to try too. I'll try to do this in the next few days.

Patrick and Pugs, you both brought up some things that jump starts my imagination: interest and small spaces. You both are willing to help me and yourselves at the same time. There seems to be some symbiotic synergism that can be grown into something beyond the obvious. One of you is in Oregon and one in Holland. I have spent hours with both of you in person and I feel there is room for others to join with me to expand this Tater Mater seed research into a grower/breeder cooperative of sorts.

For the most part, if a tomato doesn't have some chance of surviving late blight, unless it's otherwise really interesting, it's probably not worth trying to grow here. I don't have much greenhouse space, and even in a greenhouse blight is still a big problem. Outdoors, the chance of even being able to harvest fruit or seed, is probably less than 50%. Since I have limited garden space, I need to think about growing other things too.

Some years are better than others for late blight however, and I'm interested in trying some of your blue crosses too.

Over and over again, my workshops in Europe would initiate an intense Q&A session in the midst of my delivery on the need to have Late Blight resistance in tomatoes and potatoes. Even one plant of mine in many small gardens in disparate parts of the globe showing high levels of tolerance would...............(fill in the sentence)!
Patrick, if you give me those numbers, I suspect you have all that you will need on the Skykomish and blue lines.

Do you want me to let others know about your Skykomish seed, and see if I can find more people interested in growing it? If you like, I can act as a distributor, collect money and send out seeds. If you have particular wishes, for example only people you met when you were here or know, only serious participants or only specific regions, I can try to accommodate this. If the priority is to raise money by selling the seeds, I can try to do this too.

I offered samples of seed to interested parties while in Europe. It was done in the spirit of being a public domain breeder. And Patrick, what you are offering is perhaps a necessary adjunct to provide support for more breeding research and the dissemination of unregistered seed. I came home from the 2 month long tour of Europe without a clear agenda for the future. There may be opportunities presenting themselves as the future enfolds, however I may be too geek-minded to recognize them. Reminds me that one of the best compliments I've ever received was when a fella told me to my face that I was not a businessman!
Imagine the horror on his face as I quipped, Thank You!

Tom Wagner

[pugs]

Tom,

I'm trying to scale back my dreams, so I can do things like keep track and report back on plants I grow. I'm working on planning space and time. I find tomatoes are easier for me right now than potatoes. I'd be happy to grow a few plants for you of one or two varieties and keep records for you. Let me know what you're thinking of, keeping my limits in mind. I'm happy to buy seed from you. Also, while I'd save seed for myself, I won't trade or give any of it away without your permission.

Pugs

[The Future]

If I can step in here Tom, per my TPS order, I can also provide a temperate / semi tropical location for some tomatoe tests as well...(Bermuda). We grow tomatoes 12 months a year (outdoors). Summer highs never exceed 93. Winter lows avg 60. In the 50s this week. (All time low is 44 for a few minutes amidst strong winds!)

[guest]

since this is about tomatoes--Which tomato between tumbling tom or micro tom or something else would be best for a hanging tomato or in house plant. If outside would have to cover from birds and heat from summer.

[Tom Wagner]

Guest,

One of the things I allow on this forum is for folks to chime in as guests. You don't have to be a member or register to post.

But beings I know who you are from a different forum, you are more than just a guest. And thanks for mentioning the TPS trial that you performing this year from my potato program, as it is.

I have used many tomato lines that had tropical adaptation in my breeding work, and mostly, those new lines as a result have little or no verification if the ability to respond well in the tropics. Since I try to access American lines, most of the original material is like Hawaiian, South Florida, or bred for Mexico.

The hanging basket or container type tomatoes are part of my breeding and I have some neat Green Sleeves (Green Sausage) hybrids, recombinants, and further outcrosses that would have some appeal to someone in Bermuda, and ultimately to me.

For those who need a geography lesson...

Although Bermuda's latitude is similar to that of Savannah, Georgia, it is warmer in winter, and slightly cooler in summer. Its humid subtropical climate is warmed by the nearby Gulf Stream, thanks to the westerlies, which carry warm, humid air eastwards over Bermuda, helping to keep winter temperatures above freezing. The climate is humid and, as a result, the summertime heat index can be high, even though mid-August temperatures rarely exceed (86 °F). Winters are mild, with average daytime temperatures in January and February around (68 °F)

The isolation and sub tropical climate couple with easy access from the USA (Florida, Georgia, etc) would be a potential breeding adjunct. The 12 months out of the year to grow out seedling tomatoes to fruition might be something that I will want to talk to locals about.

Keep in touch. I will do a little research on Bermuda and tomatoes to ascertain further inquiry.

Tom Wagner

[thefuture]

Got it. Indeed our climate is sub-tropical - some even call it temperate. This winter has been cooler than norm with lows in the mid to high 50s. Summers never exceed 93F. We grow tomatoes 12 months of the year. Those close to me know I am a fiend for tomatoes and squash with dozens of seed types in my collection. While I am posting, I note the green-zebra / blue seed you sent. Care to comment more on this?

Very excited about the TPS grow out!

[99RedBaffoons]

Is this discussion about Burpee's disgusting usurpation of Brad Gate's tomato variety name for use to sell a tomato that doesn't remotely resemble Berkeley Tie Dye? Or is this discussion about Tom Wagner's various accomplishments and products?

[Tom Wagner]

99redbaffoons

Is this discussion about Burpee's disgusting usurpation of Brad Gate's tomato variety name for use to sell a tomato that doesn't remotely resemble Berkeley Tie Dye? Or is this discussion about Tom Wagner's various accomplishments and products?

Both!

One has to accept the fact that threads often go off topic for one reason or another. I used to be upset about that too, however I've learned to peruse posts for what they are worth. I, for one, often go off topic and although it infuriates all or most of us, the subject may come back to the original thought. Many times there are just not enough folks referring to the topic. There is simply nothing most of us can do about the (Tomato Tye-Dye Hybrid) debacle. I am guilty of taking Brad's work and taking it to a new level of breeding, thus my Join or Die variety. I kept the Dye (Die) part of Brad's variety name but only to trace the pedigree back to it by joining it with other varieties. "Join or Die" is an American Revolutionary War slogan.

If one is upset or pleased that this discussion is all about Tom Wagner's various accomplishments and products, all you have to do is look at the forum name TaterMaterSeeds and realize that it is almost exclusively dedicated to what I do. This may be selfish on my part, but it sure beats posting on other sites, forums, with such egotistic behavior. On this forum, being the administrator, I am both selfish and public-spirited. Next to the very young, I suppose the very old (me included) are the most selfish. — William Makepeace Thackeray. Since I have yet to get my web site going, (working on it) I use this forum as a surrogate. The concerns and wishes of those posting here may help me make a better web site about TaterMater stuff.

Once again, allow me to state that I think it is OK for non-registered guests to expound on my forum. I do find it funny to check the anonymous names such as 99RedBaffoons.

I am confused however, since
baffoon is either a ....
An obnoxious or oafish person.
or ....
an educated person. One who uses correct spelling and grammar.

But since I have not understood exactly the dichotomous nature of baffoon and buffoon or even ballon, I've found that...
Only non-baffoons spell "buffoon" as "baffoon".

So this implies/infers/incurs that my 99redbaffoons is a group posting as intellectually academic, awesomely smart persons, not stupid, and generally rad human beings.

I am guilty of thinking in politically incorrect thought. Example in pointedness....

Liberals
deeply believe that the vast majority of Americans are STUPID, ILLITERATE, UN-EDUCATED BAFFOONS.

But I digress further here on this topic of Tomato Tye-Dye Hybrid. How can I/we be un-educated BAFFOONS and still be educated persons. Ones who use correct spelling and grammar. Talk about oxymorons!

Rock music is full of illusions/allusions of lyrical excess. Note the lyrics translated from German to English...

Ninety-nine red balloons
Floating in the summer sky
Panic bells, it's red alert
There's something here from somewhere else
The war machine springs to life

The meaning is....a bunch (of balloons) is let go in the sky. Some people think they're UFO's. Generals who see them interpret them as enemy craft and start a giant war. Think Berlin, circa 1983.

Those lyrics are a reworking of Nena's 1984 hit '99 Red Balloons'. Retitled '99 Red Buffoon's', it was to be a list of 99 red headed idiots.

But there seems to be a motif that relates to guitarists who have misused drugs and alcohol and early death from liver problems....and that 99 Red Balloons/99 Red Buffoons is a voyage into the psyche of MacNeill’s recurring character Moira Doyle, a notorious female of ill-repute and high ambition. Join Moira as she dwells upon the effectiveness of E.D. drugs, her campaign for congress, the piety of Martha Stewart and 99 red rubbers.

All in all, it makes me wonder why someone would use a moniker such as 99redbaffoons as a user name. It smacks me as being rather
factitious; a name produced artificially, in distinction from what is produced by nature; not authentic or genuine; sham. Forgive me if my imagination on this subject is over the top, I really don't know who 99redbaffons is, and I am likely to be very wrong about this person..


Tom Wagner Sorry for the digression, I will return to the topic soon.

[Tom Wagner]

TheFuture

While I am posting, I note the green-zebra / blue seed you sent. Care to comment more on this?

Ormond Bermuda, is a name I would like to propose for a green fleshed tomato with a blue shoulder exposed to the sun. I am taking the name from a Bermuda grass (C. dactylon) called Ormond; Selected from a fairway at Ellinor Village Country Club, Ormond Beach, Florida, for attractive blue-green color. Therefore my new member TheFuture should be looking for that type of segregation of the tomato seed I sent him.

Once again, I am not keeping on the task of relating directly to the topic of hybrid Tye-Dye, but since my Green Zebra is linked to the heritage (pedigree) of such....Oh, Well!

Tom Wagner

[canadamike]

You can count on me to grow maters for you in the east Tom, especially the disease resistant ones, or whatever it is you feel the need to be grown.

[Tom Wagner]

Michel,

Join or Die is being bandied about in Europe already with that name. Unless you want to use this name...Joindre ou Mourir.....any other name would be a synonymous name

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Join,_or_Die has a link to where the name started...but I still like the name.