Post by tatermater on Feb 4, 2008 15:10:36 GMT -8
This is an essay that fits some of my philosophy and methodology. I am re-pasting it here for discussion.
I am an opinion checker. There, I’ve said it! Sometimes my opinions are set in granite, sometimes in quicksand, and sometimes in the head with me, myself and Irene! My opinions aren’t worth much most of the time, and often I go to others for their opinions. Now that is where my skills as a fact checker are challenged. With all the disinformation perpetuated by the drive by media, it is hard to ascertain the assertions of the news, which may include forums, books, scientific studies, newspapers, individuals, blogs, the Internet, and who has the ability to determine the veracity of information that may be correct or nearly so? It takes a lot of time to go through sources to even get close to a fact checker. I try at times to do quick and proper research, but there are subjects that just beg to differ with you and as a result become multi-year tasks.
The issue?
The use of TSP (trisodium phosphate) versus Oxi Clean.
I have been on record of favoring TSP in the use of cleaning tomato and potato seed in the (fresh) seed extraction methodologies. Of late some folks are proposing the use of Oxyclean or Oxi Clean as an alternative. Herein, I will attempt to dispense.
Sometimes there is so much confusion on the Internet that one must call manufacturers of products to clarify spellings of a material and its intended usage. I called the Melrose Chemical Company, which supplies Oxyclean. Their product, a liquid product used as a chlorinated cleaner contains:
* Potassium hydroxide (KOH), commonly known as caustic potash,
* Sodium hydroxide also known as lye, caustic soda
* Sodium hypochlorite, commonly known as bleach,
I called another company; Church & Dwight Co., Inc. that markets Oxi Clean. The OxiClean compound’s main ingredient is a powder, a solidified form of hydrogen peroxide and surfactants, or detergents The main ingredients are
1.sodium percarbonate,
2.soda ash
3.and some little blue grains, (causes suds to fight more stains)
Oxi Magic has
1.Clorox and
2.oxygen activators
The problem I have found is that different products with similar names abound. But for the issue at hand, note that Oxyclean is not Oxi Clean!!!
Do any of the manufacturers claim any of the chemical qualities of TSP? No!
Do any of the manufacturers claim Oxyclean or Oxi Clean in seed treatment use? No!
Oxyclean is likely not what people are using to clean seed. It is used in C.I.P. cleaning in food industries, especially in vessel cleaning. It is a liquid.
So what is this Oxi Clean powder? To wit:
Quote:
Sodium percarbonate is a white crystalline water-soluble chemical compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. It is an oxidizing agent and ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products. Despite the name, it is, in fact, a carbonate perhydrate. Dissolved in water, it releases H2O2 and soda ash (sodium carbonate):
Since Oxi Clean doesn’t have a chlorine base, it is less harsh on your skin
* Making water wetter
* Making oil stains soluble in water
* Emulsifying oils
* Lifting stains off surfaces
* Hydrogen peroxide is at best a mild antiseptic and oxidizing agent, and bleaching agent. .
* H2O2 is not Na3PO4·12H2O (TSP)
Is Soda ash and hydrogen peroxide as powerful as TSP? No, not for cleaning fresh seed.
What are some of the methods to use when preparing fresh seed during and after extraction?
Ageing: It works wonders. Allow the seed to rest for a year or more before sowing. Less disease than freshly sown seed after extraction.
TSP dissolves the gel around the seed coat, lifts organic oils and the sprout inhibitor compounds, helps kill organisms on the surfaces and crevices. Any infected seed will be more likely to float off in the water rinsing. TSP is highly caustic, so wear rubber gloves.
Some seed in solanaceous crops such as potatoes, tomatoes and pepper, traded from folks not treating their seed may be soaked for 15 minutes in a 10% solution of trisodium phosphate followed by a 30 minutes soak in a 10% solution of household bleach as a disinfectant. I prefer to do this at seed extraction time, however.
Hot water treatment. About 122 F for about 20 minutes helps kill viral organisms in the seed endosperm.
Rinse and dry.
Trying to put a single treatise together when there is some disagreement on issues requires one to bring forth the research and belabor it a bit.
TSP is available in paint stores, but it does seem to disappear in some of the major outlets, especially if they are beset by liberal activists denouncing sales of phosphates. You can find TSP if you call around for it by name and insist on purity.
I care about the health of seed. I care about growing organically if I can. But TSP is indispensable to me as I want to ensure/insure seed quality, and allows me some peace of mind. The Tobacco Mosaic troubles of a decade ago and the oncoming onslaughts of contaminants will further convince me of the need.
Potatoes grown from true seed is in a microcosm of larger events. TSP is uniquely deserving as a seed primer.
Tom Wagner
Tom Wagner is online now Report Post
I am an opinion checker. There, I’ve said it! Sometimes my opinions are set in granite, sometimes in quicksand, and sometimes in the head with me, myself and Irene! My opinions aren’t worth much most of the time, and often I go to others for their opinions. Now that is where my skills as a fact checker are challenged. With all the disinformation perpetuated by the drive by media, it is hard to ascertain the assertions of the news, which may include forums, books, scientific studies, newspapers, individuals, blogs, the Internet, and who has the ability to determine the veracity of information that may be correct or nearly so? It takes a lot of time to go through sources to even get close to a fact checker. I try at times to do quick and proper research, but there are subjects that just beg to differ with you and as a result become multi-year tasks.
The issue?
The use of TSP (trisodium phosphate) versus Oxi Clean.
I have been on record of favoring TSP in the use of cleaning tomato and potato seed in the (fresh) seed extraction methodologies. Of late some folks are proposing the use of Oxyclean or Oxi Clean as an alternative. Herein, I will attempt to dispense.
Sometimes there is so much confusion on the Internet that one must call manufacturers of products to clarify spellings of a material and its intended usage. I called the Melrose Chemical Company, which supplies Oxyclean. Their product, a liquid product used as a chlorinated cleaner contains:
* Potassium hydroxide (KOH), commonly known as caustic potash,
* Sodium hydroxide also known as lye, caustic soda
* Sodium hypochlorite, commonly known as bleach,
I called another company; Church & Dwight Co., Inc. that markets Oxi Clean. The OxiClean compound’s main ingredient is a powder, a solidified form of hydrogen peroxide and surfactants, or detergents The main ingredients are
1.sodium percarbonate,
2.soda ash
3.and some little blue grains, (causes suds to fight more stains)
Oxi Magic has
1.Clorox and
2.oxygen activators
The problem I have found is that different products with similar names abound. But for the issue at hand, note that Oxyclean is not Oxi Clean!!!
Do any of the manufacturers claim any of the chemical qualities of TSP? No!
Do any of the manufacturers claim Oxyclean or Oxi Clean in seed treatment use? No!
Oxyclean is likely not what people are using to clean seed. It is used in C.I.P. cleaning in food industries, especially in vessel cleaning. It is a liquid.
So what is this Oxi Clean powder? To wit:
Quote:
Sodium percarbonate is a white crystalline water-soluble chemical compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. It is an oxidizing agent and ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products. Despite the name, it is, in fact, a carbonate perhydrate. Dissolved in water, it releases H2O2 and soda ash (sodium carbonate):
Since Oxi Clean doesn’t have a chlorine base, it is less harsh on your skin
* Making water wetter
* Making oil stains soluble in water
* Emulsifying oils
* Lifting stains off surfaces
* Hydrogen peroxide is at best a mild antiseptic and oxidizing agent, and bleaching agent. .
* H2O2 is not Na3PO4·12H2O (TSP)
Is Soda ash and hydrogen peroxide as powerful as TSP? No, not for cleaning fresh seed.
What are some of the methods to use when preparing fresh seed during and after extraction?
Ageing: It works wonders. Allow the seed to rest for a year or more before sowing. Less disease than freshly sown seed after extraction.
TSP dissolves the gel around the seed coat, lifts organic oils and the sprout inhibitor compounds, helps kill organisms on the surfaces and crevices. Any infected seed will be more likely to float off in the water rinsing. TSP is highly caustic, so wear rubber gloves.
Some seed in solanaceous crops such as potatoes, tomatoes and pepper, traded from folks not treating their seed may be soaked for 15 minutes in a 10% solution of trisodium phosphate followed by a 30 minutes soak in a 10% solution of household bleach as a disinfectant. I prefer to do this at seed extraction time, however.
Hot water treatment. About 122 F for about 20 minutes helps kill viral organisms in the seed endosperm.
Rinse and dry.
Trying to put a single treatise together when there is some disagreement on issues requires one to bring forth the research and belabor it a bit.
TSP is available in paint stores, but it does seem to disappear in some of the major outlets, especially if they are beset by liberal activists denouncing sales of phosphates. You can find TSP if you call around for it by name and insist on purity.
I care about the health of seed. I care about growing organically if I can. But TSP is indispensable to me as I want to ensure/insure seed quality, and allows me some peace of mind. The Tobacco Mosaic troubles of a decade ago and the oncoming onslaughts of contaminants will further convince me of the need.
Potatoes grown from true seed is in a microcosm of larger events. TSP is uniquely deserving as a seed primer.
Tom Wagner
Tom Wagner is online now Report Post