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Post by DarJones on Nov 12, 2010 8:09:02 GMT -8
Not to throw a monkey wrench into your post Tom, but there are 3 genes involved in P20. The original cross was aft+atv+abg. Unfortunately, a chromosome inversion means abg can only be retained in a heterozygous cross. It can never be stabilized in current form. But that does not end the story. There is still a third gene, hp which enhances pigment expression. So the best I can tell, P20 segregated for aft, atv, and hp. In one of my early growouts, I grew a single plant of P20 that seems to have been homozygous for all three traits. It produced the jet black fruits like these. www.selectedplants.com/gardenphotos/bluetomato2.jpg In the early breeding lines, I could easily find various combinations of aft and atv, but hp was inconsistent and often missing. DarJones
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Post by paquebot on Nov 12, 2010 10:25:52 GMT -8
Paquebot (Mailboat?) You have not been posting that many times, so I don't know how much you know about my breeding work.....but your questions are good to have. Began selling tomato seeds 60 years ago, began growing them a few years later. Martin
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Post by paquebot on Nov 12, 2010 10:46:18 GMT -8
It would thus appear that it would be presumptuous to say that we'll see a stable OSU Blue from the lines that are presently available. That seems to be an opinion shared by all growers, with or without knowledge of genetics. If it could be done, someone, somewhere, would endeavor to do it or prove that they did it. It's current status, therefore, will remain primarily as a novelty while all of the "Burbanks" around the world will try to make it more useful. I do like the color of sauces made from the fruit so I will refrain from agreeing with any claims that it has no purpose in an average garden.
Martin
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Post by Tom Wagner on Nov 12, 2010 13:33:12 GMT -8
Sometimes when I am out in the field...I don't think in scientific terms and I simplify the genes into a one/two punch. I am only concerned with two genes to get the blues I want...I don't think about hp and other genes so much.
Therefore, in the seedling stage I look for F-2's that show good blue stems and leaves...the more the better and those get priority spots in the transplantation process. I figure the atv gene...hard to remember the full name without stuttering/muttering...is recessive...so the most blue plants are most likely to be homozygous....stability achieved!
The second stage of selection usually occurs after fruit set on up to ripening. Does it have a slight blue shoulder? Good..that means it carries the gene on one side...if it is really blue....double good...meaning it is most likely to be among the homozygous...stability achieved. So here it is....a restatement of the genes....in order of importance and/or selection Blue gene #1
Blue gene #2
I have a tomato I called OUT OF THE BLUE because it has deep blue/purple stems and leaves but the fruits are a brilliant red without a trace of blue. One's eyes gravitate to the ripe tomatoes to unselfconsciously pick and eat those little red morsels.
The link that Darrel shows is one that has blue fruits but green leaves. Hmmm...Does that mean it doesn't carry the atv gene?
Reminds me that everyone unacquainted with blue tomatoes automatically wants to pick them immediately without a second thought. I tell them...."Wait a minute...Is the bottom of the fruit red?...They look at me like I am out of my mind......No it is a blue fruit and it has to be ripe!" I don't need to remind anyone here that most folks can't wait the number of weeks necessary for the fruits to ripen up and Boy Howdy, are they disappointed when the shoulder turns brownish purple when it ripens and the fruit is only red inside with just the slightest margin of the pericarp a bit blue.
The segregation of Green Zebra and P-20 blues gives me many striped fruits and even Black Zebra types with its smokey brown-black flesh co-mingling with the blue genes...talk about intense! The green stripes are like the green shoulders of the tomatoes that pick up the blue colorings with the direct sunlight and even the stripes are part blue. I know Dr. Myers is working with blues crossed to Striped Roman which has my Banana Legs creation in it. But he says I am further ahead of the stripe/blue breeding work than he is.
If I get more of my blues sent out for next year or whenever....I am not worried about stability per se....lets work together for that...and have fun.
Tom Wagner
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Post by karmasuture on Nov 12, 2010 13:58:25 GMT -8
I do have one question about something which I haven't figured out from the beginning. Why does it seem that everyone is using OSU Blue almost entirely as a cross rather than perfecting it? I thought that was the intent or the preference of the breeder, Dr. Myers, that those of us who have the seeds use them to cross with other varieties to incorporate the anthocyanin benefits into more marketable or acceptable tomatoes.
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Post by DarJones on Nov 12, 2010 15:55:17 GMT -8
And therein lies a long and rather troubling story. OSU had at least 3 grad students work on the blue tomato lines making crosses and selecting from among them for the darkest colors. Then, about 4 years ago, a woman who uses the ID Byndeweedbeth got some seed from someone in the program and offered them on davesgarden. She sent seed out to at least a dozen people I know of direct and likely quite a few more. At the same time, several articles were published that caused significant interest in the breeding stock. Dr. Myers started releasing breeding stock under Material Transfer Agreements. About 50 people got the P20 stock under those MTA's. A couple of years down the road the "OSU Blue" was being offered in SSE's catalog and it was widely available via seed trades on numerous gardening forums. This was derived from seed that had been sent out by Byndeweedbeth and has been inconsistent in several traits. So what is wrong with this? Several grad students worked hard to develop the breeding lines and Jim Myers put in a lot of time and effort to characterize and stabilize the traits. They have not had the opportunity to name and release a variety, yet the genetics have become so widespread that anyone can get a few seed with no more effort than sending an email. Tom, The plants I linked above are just a trick of lighting. the leaves and stems are all deep blue/green. Your climate is a relatively cool maritime where mine is an intense hot humid deep southern. The photo was taken after those plants had been through over a month of blistering hot 100+ degree days with no rain and very few clouds. The intensity of sunlight under those conditions changes the color expression to what you see in the photo. If I grow the same plants in early spring or late fall when temperatures and light intensity are lower, I get lots of pretty purple leaves and blue/purple fruit vs the almost black color you see in the photo. I dug this photo up of some plants that I culled earlier this spring for various reasons, mostly because they were not dark enough or I already had better plants set out in the garden. Note the heavy expression of atv in the leaves. www.selectedplants.com/gardenphotos/ph.crosses.jpgHere is one of the segregating lines that just did not color up enough to make the final cut plus it was very susceptible to septoria. www.selectedplants.com/gardenphotos/PHXP20001.jpgDarJones
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joseph
Junior Member
Market farmer
Posts: 57
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Post by joseph on Nov 12, 2010 18:41:33 GMT -8
So what is wrong with this? Several grad students worked hard to develop the breeding lines and Jim Myers put in a lot of time and effort to characterize and stabilize the traits. I can't see anything wrong with the genetics of the OSU blue tomato being spread around... The students and staff were using tax dollars to do the work. They shouldn't have any expectation of privacy or proprietary-ness.
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Post by karmasuture on Nov 12, 2010 19:24:26 GMT -8
Could've been tax dollars. Could've been foundation or private enterprise grant monies. I don't know. Do you know? Just sayin' ...
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Post by frogsleapfarm on Nov 12, 2010 20:06:21 GMT -8
So what is wrong with this? Several grad students worked hard to develop the breeding lines and Jim Myers put in a lot of time and effort to characterize and stabilize the traits. I can't see anything wrong with the genetics of the OSU blue tomato being spread around... The students and staff were using tax dollars to do the work. They shouldn't have any expectation of privacy or proprietary-ness. It's their intellectual property. Regardless of whom they work for, this was something they developed, and the developers should have control over how it is released. What's done is done, but I think it is a shame the way that this all worked out. I say this as a beneficiary of the rouge OSU release and knowing the fun I've had the last couple of years with the germplasm.
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Post by PatrickW on Nov 13, 2010 12:49:50 GMT -8
Martin's a friend of mine. I have some of his garlic in my garden, as well as some seeds waiting to grow. I have a great perennial onion that came from him too! He's one of the most active people I know involved in promoting and distributing biodiversity. He offers his tomatoes via my blog, and they are among the most requested seeds.
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Post by flutterby on Nov 13, 2010 15:38:30 GMT -8
I received some OSU blue seeds last year and grew some out for the first time this year. One of the plants had no blue in it at all, and of the few that grew well, one outperformed all the rest, with fruit all season and still putting out. I am hoping to grow the seedlings out from the best vine and eventually breed it with a more stable purple-fleshed tomato. True they are a bit bland for those who like the tomatoey flavor, but I happen to like this one as the blue is mild and sweet almost like a blueberry. Another plant, which was much less vigorous, had purple foliage towards the end of the seasona nd did not have the full indeterminate growth. True, they were all different.
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Post by paquebot on Nov 13, 2010 19:48:42 GMT -8
With everyone else off to play Burbank and use the OSU Blue for crosses, I think that it's going to be more fun to just play with what I have. Being in charge of an almost 2-acre community garden complex, I can plant a 400' row along one side if I so desire. I've been using that to plant pairs at 15' intervals but could plant about 125 plants and see what happens. Maybe 125 different combinations!
Martin
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Post by dkelly on Nov 18, 2010 9:01:32 GMT -8
I signed the MTA I think I had t give up my firstborn. OSU blue for me was good tasting, and productive. The texture was a little on the soft side though.
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Post by thefuture on Feb 21, 2011 14:54:43 GMT -8
Therefore, in the seedling stage I look for F-2's that show good blue stems and leaves...the more the better and those get priority spots in the transplantation process. The second stage of selection usually occurs after fruit set on up to ripening. Does it have a slight blue shoulder? Good..that means it carries the gene on one side...if it is really blue....double good...meaning it is most likely to be among the homozygous...stability achieved. So here it is....a restatement of the genes....in order of importance and/or selection Blue gene #1Blue gene #2 Tom Wagner I've just planted my F3 green zebra/OSU blues out. I found about 4 out of 22 plants had purples stems/leaves even though I did no notice any of this on the plant they were saved from. these were from the largest fruit and I also noted one of the 22 was already flowering at transplant. Now if they survive the strong wind of the next few days/weeks....
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Post by thefuture on Feb 24, 2011 15:00:40 GMT -8
No sooner than my transplanting these plants did the winds pick up again. Gusts to 56 knots that day and several days after with strong steady winds. They are whipped. While technically they are still got some green left in them, it is a very slim chance they will make it.
Ce la vie.
Luckiliy, I have one saved in a sheltered location, albeit not one with purple colouration and another few someone saved for me...hopefully with some purple colouration.
Otherwise, it is the few seeds I have left from the original batch TW sent me - all sown last month - from which my selections will have to come.
I get very attached to my plants yet have to quickly turn it off when required. Practise for the other precious things in life.
In this case I didn't even get a picture....only in my mind.
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