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Post by macmex on Apr 29, 2011 7:02:30 GMT -8
I have a tomato variety, inherited from my father, back in the 80s. He received his seed in 1973, in NJ. It grew well for him for about 7 years and then he was unable to get a good crop. It came down with late blight every time. In 83 I got seed from him and grew it in Indiana. It grew and produced well for me there. We were out of the country, mostly, from 87 to 2001, and unable to grow tomatoes. When I could again, in 2002, we were back in Nj. I tried, there, to grow this tomato, for four years. But it only produced enough to renew seed. Here in Oklahoma I've grown it a couple of times. But it appears it doesn't set and ripen fruit well in our extreme heat. Last year it also started into late blight and I had to pull the plants.
My question is this: could my method of saving tomato seed be perpetuating disease, which is affecting this plant's vigor and productivity? If so, could I clean it up by changing my method of seed processing?
Thanks,
George
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Post by Tom Wagner on Apr 29, 2011 10:50:34 GMT -8
George,
This can be complicated.
First of all certain bacterial problems CAN be carried by the seed.....namely;
Bacterial Canker Bacterial Speck Bacterial Spot
Generally speaking...however....
Late blight on tomatoes is not seed-borne.
However,..... Early blight can be seed-borne, resulting in damping-off. Infected plant residues in the soil can carry the disease to the following season, particularly if the soil is dry. The spores are formed on the surface of infected tissue and can be spread by the wind and splashes of water.
Many times when a variety is first planted in an area it does well only to increasingly fall prey to a host of diseases. Late blight spores are probably in the ground ready to go when conditions are right and the strains are more and more problematic to older varieties.
Some varieties may not be immediately attacked by disease but can be weakened to the point where almost any pathogen has a go.
Also I feel there is a certain running out going on...an inbreeding fashion of sorts. Unforeseen weakness are expressed more fully if the germ plasm has no variability. Sometimes they must be crossed out to another ...more healthy variety and then back crossed to the original...Then saving the seed is from those which fit the discription for the variety and has none of the weaknesses.
Seed saving techniques....always a good place to start when you need to do something more proactive.
I don't ferment but some do. I use a combination of hot water treatment 122 F. water for up to 25 minutes, a chlorine bath, and TSP...Trisodium Phosphate to get rid of TMV and other pathogens.
Fresh seed is more apt to have contamination ....older seed less so.
Because I am a stickler when it comes to disease spread I use those chemicals to help my process. Otherwise I am organic.
Trial and error. Allowing someone else to grow out some plants and send seed back might work.
Tom Wagner
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Post by DarJones on Apr 29, 2011 19:55:38 GMT -8
I'm another who uses bleach no matter what. I've had a significant reduction of disease problems on seedlings just because I switched to bleaching each and every seed I save. Granted it is not organic. It is highly effective and very low impact. That is a compromise I can live with.
DarJones
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Post by macmex on Apr 30, 2011 3:50:26 GMT -8
Thanks for the input. I'm going to make some changes in how I process seed. Also, perhaps with some patient investigation, I can learn to do selective crossing and follow Tom's suggestion. This seed has probably had quite the genetic bottleneck over the years. I know the first sample of seed, our Italian friend obtained, was from just one tomato.
George
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Post by GunnarSK on May 1, 2011 6:02:10 GMT -8
This seed has probably had quite the genetic bottleneck over the years. I know the first sample of seed, our Italian friend obtained, was from just one tomato. George In breeding, single seed descendancy is often used, and I think Tom does so too, but it may require some crossing...
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Post by Tom Wagner on May 1, 2011 9:20:06 GMT -8
I use single seed descent for most of my work....even though I may have several single seed descent lineage going on. I often rely on a well performing line through many generations, but allow the other single seed lines to be available in my so-called seed bank. From time to time...I will go back to 15 yr. old seed or older to refresh my inventory.
In the potential event of a problem occurring in a seed batch where poor type, low vigor, mixed or crossed seed; I can quickly revert to another sourced seed to replace accidents...and they do happen more often than I would like to admit.
I have occasionally crossed one line to another...say a 1990 seed to a 2009 seed of the same variety separated by many generations. This may be a necessary evil to keep some lines vibrant. If there is a broken gene--mutation--what have you, the family mated cross may do wonders on restoring the rightful gene patterns....as most mutations are recessive and the updated same variety hybrid shows little or no adverse effects. It is then incumbent on the seed saver to observe the F-2 population to determine if any recombination of those bad genes pop up. When saving seed from those F-2's...now F-3 seed...to observe the segregation to make sure the broken genes do not appear again. If all of the siblings are great...a single line descent can commence again safely.
Tom Wagner
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Post by macmex on May 1, 2011 16:52:29 GMT -8
Tom, have you put anything on the Internet on how to do hand pollinations?
George
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Post by DarJones on May 1, 2011 17:05:34 GMT -8
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Post by wildseed57 on May 2, 2011 6:48:21 GMT -8
I plan to try and cross two tomato varieties, this year and save seeds from all the rest while looking for better resistance to the disease problems I have here in Missouri. With all the rain we are getting and cooler weather I expect quite a few problems, so I will save seeds from the best varieties for next year along with putting most of the weaker varieties in deep sleep in the frig. I ferment my seeds and after which I give them a chlorine bleach bath before drying and storage, I get pretty close to 100% germination. I have three Portuguese varieties and two Italian tomatoes that I'm hoping to see the best resistance in, I noticed some resistance in one called Portuguese Monster that I got from Dan(grunt) as It out lasted most of the varieties I was growing last year. I don't put all my faith in one or two varieties even if they have some resistance, because what may grow well one year may not the next, I usually will grow about 8 or more varieties, with about half being ones that I have not grown before. One that I will grow each year mainly because I like the flavor is Hawaiian pineapple it grows well and the tomatoes have a sweet fruity like taste, It has a little resistance, but usually gives up about the end of August when PM and spider mites hit it. George W.
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Post by DarJones on May 2, 2011 7:24:25 GMT -8
George W., The best way to improve disease resistance is to get some varieties that have disease resistance to do your crosses. Unfortunately, very few tomatoes have significant disease tolerance. Eva Purple Ball is slightly tolerant to Septoria. Burgundy Traveler is similar. There are a few others that have some tolerance to fusarium, verticillium, and nematodes. There are no widely available varieties with tolerance to Early and Late blight. Tom has a couple that would be worth trying.
DarJones
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Post by macmex on May 2, 2011 8:17:22 GMT -8
Thanks for all the input. This is great!
George
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Post by wildseed57 on May 2, 2011 10:18:00 GMT -8
Thanks DarJones for that info I thought that I might use a Hybrid that was VFFNTA, but as It turned out, the one I used last year was one of the first to drop dead just as it was producing some good but tough skinned tomatoes, I got Tom's MMD and MMD X OSU sent to me, so I might try a cross with them next year if they do well. I want to keep the indeterminate growth while keeping some of the better resistance of a determinate variety like Floralina that has VFFFA. I guess I would then do a back cross to my original indeterminate variety. If I can do the cross with out ruining to many flowers, I will plant both my original variety and my hybrid in containers so that I can stabilize them which it will make it some what easier to work with. I wish I had some wild varieties to work with, especially ones that will add a lot of flavor and more resistance, but as I can't use the USDA any more I will just have to use what I can get. George W.
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Post by hill60 on May 14, 2011 9:05:01 GMT -8
When I look for instructions for tomato seed saving methods I seem to only find fermentation methods.
It seems to be really hard to find information that is not considered organic. Could Tom, DarJones or anyone that uses other methods post some details how you save your seeds.
Thanks Denice
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Post by Tom Wagner on May 14, 2011 11:09:50 GMT -8
I certainly appreciate organic solutions for preparing seeds for saving.
Since I grow things as organic as I can....there is no argument from me about fermenting seeds. I don't do it.
Do I wash my clothes by fermenting them in a bath of tomatoes for a few days? No!
I don't trust pathogens....therefore I forgo the organic treatment of seed and do the clothes thing...hot water, TSP and Chlorine.
Especially since I am one of the few people dedicating their life to potatoes from TPS....I find that I can effectively prime the true potato seed for better and quicker germination with less disease problems by chemical treatment. In tomato seed....I had to learn the hard way how to get rid of Tomato Mosaic virus. I had to learn the hard way that long storage of seed helps get rid of virus.
If someone could tell me how I could "wash" clothes in a dual fashion....ferment wine, beer, etc. and still get clean smelling clothes without getting 'high' from first putting them on........lol. I wonder if my wine in turn would have a special terroir....an earthiness or pungency?
I extract seed often from a single tomato....I eat the tomato and save the seeds.....what am I going to ferment the seed with? My good looks? That's the ticket.
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Post by hill60 on May 14, 2011 19:24:26 GMT -8
How much TSP and chlorine do you use.
I have only started saving seeds since 2009 up until then all my seed was purchased from the big seed companies. I have concerns about introducing diseases to my garden via seed. Your method of saving seeds makes sense to me.
Thanks Denice
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